> In either case it seems to me >that the whole situation is >different if you are prevented >from defending yourself, as >opposed to choosing not to >defend yourself.

To this I’d add something that (in my opinion and experience) tends to escape the notice of those seeking to create an absolutely non-violent society and/or religion: once such a society/religion arises, growing up in such a society may mean that one loses the opportunity to CHOOSE avoiding violence (including the opportunity to choose between defending and not defending oneself) — simply because growing up in/getting enculturated by/living within an entirely non-violent society (and abiding by its governance) amounts *by* *definition* to “being [socially] prevented from” violence.

If you spend your whole life (from womb to tomb) in a place where violence never gets to happen (because the whole social set-up operates against allowing any temptation/opportunity/motivation for violence), just when and where in that lifetime do you have any opportunity to do the “karmic learning” that Jeff postulates (the chance to experience for yourself the consequences of committing/allowing violence?)